firstlym randip, you didnt answer ANY of my questions... you started the insulting, ill finish it.

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Pyaree Sat Sangat Je:
WahegurujekakhalsaWahegurujekefateh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Bibi Anad Kaur Je, and others interested in this meat debate.

Anad Kaur you are correct in saying that quotes and references are required to prove that Maharaj Guru Granth Sahib Je, does infact state that meat eating is wrong. Before giving these details lets look at common sense, and what Dharam actually involves.

In all ways of God-realization, there is a way. In Taoism this is called Tao, in Sikhi the hukam, in Christianity the will, and so on. In order to realize, one must follow this path. This path is difficult, as the path is narrow and sharp, and fine. As stated in Anand Sahib.

The truth is sublime, and what is correct in one situation is opposite in another, that is why the higher realization you gain, leads you to react differently to a given situation. For example, a lie is a lie, but to lie to save a life, it is like the truth. Thus in extreme circumstance for the survival of the Guru Khals Panth, it may have been necessary, to eat meat.

To follow the truth, to know what is real, to gain the vision, the experience, one must therefore have love and compassion. It is out of compassion and love, that the path is initiated from. Love for everything, even your enemies th creation, good and bad, as they are all a part of Guru Je. The Panj Pyarey gave their heads out of love.

"If you wish the to play the game of love, come humbly with your head in your palms." Jo tou prem kelan......

Hence if you wish to have love submit to the will, the way. As mentioned in Jap ji sahib, it is best to submit to his will.

It is from this Daya, that the Earth is supported (not the mythical bull), and that Dharam is created, and from this Santokh ( contentment and peace are obtained).

"Daul Dharam Daya Ka putth......"

This is also a key basic in most religions, righteousness, love, and contentment. In Zen buddhism is is know as :

Zhen-Shan-Ren (jhun-shahn-ren)?Zhen (truth, truthfulness); Shan (compassion,
benevolence, kindness); Ren (forbearance, tolerance, endurance).

To follow Dharam to gain contentment (santokh) by following his hukam, through unlimited compassion, tolerance, and forgiveness ( from daya).

Therefore to inflict pain on an animal, known as a na-dos(h) jeev in Guru Granth sahib is incorrect. Also the references to karam, what you sow is what you reap, is part and parcel of Guru Je`s message. There is also references to the churasse lakh joona, in Guru Maharaj.

"karme appo apney key neyrey keh do-rr", in salok of Jap ji sahib.

kyqy ruK ibrK hm cIny kyqy psU aupwey ] (156-11, gauVI cyqI, mhlw 1)
I took the form of so many plants and trees, and so many animals.
kyqy nwg kulI mih Awey kyqy pMK aufwey ]2] (156-11, gauVI cyqI, mhlw 1)
Many times I entered the families of snakes and flying birds. ||2||

lK caurwsIh Brmdy mnhiT AwvY jwie ] (162-13, gauVI bYrwgix, mhlw 3)
Through 8.4 million incarnations, people wander lost; in stubborn-mindedness, they come and go.
gur kw sbdu n cIinE iPir iPir jonI pwie ]2] (162-14, gauVI bYrwgix, mhlw 3)
They do not realize the Word of the Guru`s Shabad; they are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

WHAT MAHARAJ SAYS:
QUOTES FROM BANI AGAINST MEAT EATING/KILLING TO EAT:

Lets first look at Bhai Gurdas Je`s vara (The key to Guru-Maharaj).

Bhagat Sadhana was a butcher, obviously killing animals for the meat. A few of his shabads are in Guru Granth Sahib Je.

Bhai Gurdas says the following:

Though the butcher (Bhagat Sadhana) got salvation, killing life-forms and to eat them is a bad deed.

Je kasaaee udhriaa, jeeaa ghaai na khaaeeai bhangaa.

Also there is a parable of ingratitude, where a sweeping laday, cooks dogs meat in wine, puts it into the stinking skull, covers it with a dirty blood stained rag. When asked what she is carrying she replies, I cover my food so it cannot be seen by ungrateful glances.

The meaning being that bad things, eg meat wine ,are indeed bad and shameful, but an ungrateful glance to those that eat them is worse.

Taken From Bhai Gurdas Je`s Vaara .. Dr Gobind Singh Mansukani and Macauliffe, " The sikh religion".

Gurbani tells us what to eat:

Kabir khoob khana khecharee ja mehh anmrit lohn
haara roti karnay galaa katava kauun (ang 374 Guru granth Sahib je)

Kabir eat as much rice and pulses, with salt is tasteful
What is the use of cutting throats to satisfy your hunger? You will be beheaded as punishment.

Do not give pain to animals:

dookh na daee kisaay jeaa patt sioo ghar jaavhoo (322 ang GGSJ)

Kabir Bhang masahalee supapaan jo jo pranne kaahhe
teraath barat naaym koiie tay sabhhey rasatul jaheh (1377 ang GGSJ)

Kabir those that take hemp, fish and takes liquor
will go to hell and pilgrimage and fast are of no use.

Bhai Gurdas je:

maas khaan gal vaddkey hal tinaara kaaun hovssee

Vaar 25.

Those who kill living beings and eat meat, what punishment will they suffer, do they realise?

Japi sahib :

asankh malechh mall pakk kii-y

inumberable malechh eat filth??

The word malechh is a used by strict brahmins, and sadhus, as to those that consume wine, meat.

Also :

Beyd purreyeh mukh meete bani.
jeaa kuhat na sangiyeh parani.

You read the bayds scriptures so sweetly.
Arent you ashamed about slaughtering the creatures oh man?

From Manmohan Singhs -Rehat Maryada points of contention .

The word kuttha....

Paap Karendar Sarpar Muthey.
Ajraeel Pharrey Phar KUTHHEY. (pg. 1019)
The sinner will certainly be ruined or destroyed.
The angel of death will seize and kill them.

(Here the word "kuthhey" means simply killing, not killing by Halaal)

Bed Parhey Mukh Mitthee Baani
Jeeaan KUHAT Na Sangey Paraanee. (pg. 201)
He (Pandit) recites the Vedas very sweetly, but he does not hesitate to kill life.

Abhakhya Ka KUIHHA Bakra Khanaa
Choukay Upar Kisey Na Jaanaa. (pg. 472)
They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims which the Hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter
their kitchen square

This to a brahmam or hindu, who does not kill in the halal fashion, thus the word kuttha does not necessarily mean halal, as some sikhs like to believe. It means to slaughter with an instrument.(bayd parraei mukh meeta bani jeeha kuhat na sangeyeh prani ). There is no way to kill humanely.

Also if sikhs say Jhatka is a way to kill, in a painless fashion, this argument has no truth in it. The word jhatka, is not in Dasam Gur, or Guru Granth Sahib je. Also certain shabads in Guru granth sahib condemn the fact that scriptures are repeated while performing slaughter, this is what they do while performing Jhatka. So, in reality there is little difference between this and halal, as it is sacrificial, and almost paganism.

Taken from "Rehat Marayada Points of contention" by Manmohan Singh Je.:

Baba Hore Khanna Khushi Khuaar
Jit Khaadey Tan Peeriay, Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar. (pg. 196)
0 Baba! All other foods (except the Naam)
create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil.


This tukhh that bani says, naam is our food, love for guru jes name, foods for mind and body create trouble. Therefore eat little and simply, and sleep less. Where does a pork chop or burger fit into this equation?

Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, writes in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:

"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself
abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib prohibits eating of animal flesh in clearcut and unambiguous language in anumber of places:

Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar ThaapohAdharam Kaho Kat Bhai.
Aapas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee. (pg. 1103)

You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)?
Even then you consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?

Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, Jhoothhaa Jo Na Bichaarey.
Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudal Kahat Ho,To Kio Murghi Maarey. (pg. 1350)

Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought to their contents. If you consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the chicken (i.e., life?)

Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.
Aapaa Dekh Avar Nahin Dekhey,Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey. (pg. 1375)

You keep fasts (i.e., religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.

Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar,Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.
Daftar Daee Jab Kaadh Hal, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal (pg. 1375)

Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?

Kabir Bhaang, Machhli Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.
Tirath, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey. (pg. 1376)

Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste.

Kabir Khoob Khaana Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon.
Heraa Rotee Kaamey Galaa Kataavey Kon. (pg. 1374)

Blessed is the simple food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter, for the meat one eats here?

Also in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, after Siri Shaster naam mala, there are a number of small couplets, like Khalsa Mahima (jagat jot jape...) and also a small couplet on Rehat called Sikhi Rehat. In this the rehat has been explained using islamic arabic/persian words. Guru has stated that a sikh of the guru will not act in the fashion of Halal, e.g circumscision, meat rituals, shaving of hair etc, or Haram. Haram being eating meat that is not halal, therefore any other meat, and adultery. Also wearing panj kaaf (5 k`s), not to trim ones hair, or dye the hair.

There are many more quotes from various rehat-namey etc, but this will make this very lengthy indeed. I hope this helps.Look into Gurbani, read it all for yourself, instead of small tukhs from a lengthy shabad(s), and make up your up own mind. The angs are given (page numbers, on some of the quotes. Hope this helps.

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Re: Rehat Maryada

 

Guru Gobind Singh Ji verbally explained the Rehat Maryada on Baisakhi Day of 1699, when the Khalsa was initially founded. We do not have a complete set of systematically written directions regarding the Rehat Maryada from him. Of course, many Sikhs, some contemporaries of the Guru and others descendent of those who attended the Guru, have written their observations and instructions regarding the conduct to be practiced by the Khalsa. When these writings are compared, they contradict each other (both directly and by omission). In a few cases, the instructions go against the principles of Gurmat (permanently recorded and authenticated Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib). Sikh scholars, therefore, realized that some sections of the Rehat Namas were not written by the persons whose names are associated with those writings. They were modified later on.

Hence, when the Rehat was explained to new members of the Khalsa during later Amrit ceremonies, changes were unintentionally made to the spoken instructions originally given by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. A popular school exercise demonstrates that even if one were to whisper a sentence from person to person within a single classroom, by the time the message reaches the last person, it is completely changed from the original. In the specific case of the Rehat Maryada, each new Amritdhari had to learn and repeat not just a sentence, but a philosophy and a way of life. This easily resulted in people creating their own interpretations of the message, even when attempts were made not to do so. One can only imagine the changes which took place when some people tried to create a Maryada "better and holier" than the one practiced by other Sikhs

 

 

- thats why when you look at the rehat maryada, and look at philsopohy it may teach, you have be smart, and look at the guru granth sahib ji, and compare them.

As far as practices and what the Rehat Maryada suggests one to do, like naam jaap, that is acceptable, without any though. IT is a practice.

 

 

SO you continue to use the Rehat Maryada as your defense, and you dont care whether it is compatible or not with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

 

Your translations are faulty and incorrect.

 

Lastly, I reccomend you read and understand the basic vlaues of sikhi.

 

Bottom line is, if you respect an atma, you dont drink the blood of an animal. If you believe an atma exists in rocks, you must respect that as well. Thats the bottom line.

 

Summinder Singh.